Extreme Programming
bas says : I am not quite sure what to think about extreme programming... is it really that good, or is it just for leasy programmer that don't want to document?
Does some one has experiences with it?
Thanks
Bas
salcorp says : I did, and it was bad.
You gotta have the right people to do it because its not every common Joe that can whip up the responsability of 2 to 3 times more development and still keep up quality work.
Depending on the structure of the project its better to leave the documentation process for the ones who actually are able to write it in human language instead of programming code, while the coders get their value time in the best way they know how, programming.
But you can gotta watch out for the mixtures... teaming good apples and bad apples are not always a bad idea. Two great apples tend to make one of them slack because they are so attuned. Mixing up a bit encourages growth.
ross_valusoft says :
salcorp>I did, and it was bad.
You gotta have the right people to do it because its not every common Joe that can whip up the responsability of 2 to 3 times more development and still keep up quality work.
Depending on the structure of the project its better to leave the documentation process for the ones who actually are able to write it in human language instead of programming code, while the coders get their value time in the best way they know how, programming.
But you can gotta watch out for the mixtures... teaming good apples and bad apples are not always a bad idea. Two great apples tend to make one of them slack because they are so attuned. Mixing up a bit encourages growth.
Hello,
So how do you go about selecting your two person teams? I would have thought that if the available people know each other, no one who is good would allow a lazy coder join him.
This is all about productivity isn't it? Did you ever hear about the work that DeMarco and Lister did on their longitudinal study of software productivity? The results really surprised me. All bosses who believe that open plan work places are best should be forced to memorise their book as punishment...in my humble opinion
3CPO says : Enlight me. What did DeMarco and Lister say?
salcorp says : the problem that Ihad was that I had 3 teams of 2 with great coders that ended up leaving only one doing all the work and 2 teams of 2 medium coders that keept up the "hardcore" ones.
The thing that happened is that when 2 great minds collide they tend to over-react and diverge to the point of rupture. Countless times I had to resolve issues like "variable name definition" and "function structure best practices". In the end both of the coders were right, but they just kept loosing time discussing triviality.
When I say keep the teams mixed I donīt mean get the bad apples with the good ones because you ultimatelly shoudnīt even have bad apples. You should only find a midterm solution to what I called at the time "Clash of titans" problem.
ross_valusoft says :
3CPO>Enlight me. What did DeMarco and Lister say?
OK. This comes from the book "Peopleware, Productive Projects and Teams". They were trying to measure productivity of software development and what contributed or detracted from achieving it.
You know when you are reading a fiction and someone interrupts you, or you haven't read it for a day or two, you have to read the previous page again to catch up with where you left off. Well these guys worked out that programmers also get into a "flow" and if they get interrupted they have to spend time getting back into it before being productive again (like reading the page again). The telephone rings, the switchboard announces aloud that "Fred is wanted in reception", the good looking chick comes buy selling raffle tickets or the guy nextdoor to you wants to tell you about his hot date the night before....interruptions all of them.
They said that anyone involved in brain work (engineers, programmers, writers, etc) must be able to stay in "flow" to be productive. And getting into flow is not like throwing a switch...it takes 15 or more minutes before this state is locked in again. So a one minutes telephone call on a different topic can actually cost you 16 or more minutes. It does not take long before half your potential working day is gone!
If I remember correctly, and I am not going to pull their book off my bookshelf to find the exact number, the best productivity they found was at the IBM Research Labs where a figure of about 40% productivity was achieved. That is just a little more than 3 hours per working day! They found that IBM had created an ideal work environment with closed offices with a maximum of 3 people working on the same or similar projects, with similar work ethics...so they had minimal interruptions. They could also divert their telephone calls to someone else for specified blocks of the day. I guess today they might have their email checked only once or twice a day instead of every 3 minutes with the 'You have mail" interrupting.
I did some contract work for a Government organisation a little while ago. They put me in the open plan office area amongst people who had nothing to do with software. They talked aloud, answered their telephones, had social talks all around me. I ended up staying late after they left so that I could get some work done! The boss knew but was powerless to do anything. Before they moved into that building, the section boss had tried to get offices for some of his "thinking" workers but was told no by the finance people. It is cheaper to have no walls, no office doors and windows, one air conditioning systems, easier to wire up, etc. So the organisation wins in the short term but loses in the long term. Why do the bosses pay us for 8 hours a day if they don't get 8 hours productivity? Beats me!
Getting down from my favourite soapbox...
salcorp says : the thing is this is a two-way street.
In my former job the surroundings where beutiful... no walls, everybody could see each other... constants chit chats about the latest gossip next to the vending machine. It really made the work enviroment a relaxed and friendly one.
The work in there flowed with no glitches... as long as it wasnīt on deadline crash course. Normally everyone learned to work in a open enviroment, where you could here the next guys wife dicussing with him on the phone. But when work had to be done fast and furious the necessary enviroment for constant concentration was just not there.
What Iīm trying to say here is that with some projects, mainly the correctly estimated one (eg. the pratically non-existing ones) the enviroment doesnīt need to have so much boundaries as it needs with its counterpart where constant focus is needed.
Employee quality of workplace balances with employee work quality.
ross_valusoft says :
salcorp>the thing is this is a two-way street.
In my former job the surroundings where beutiful... no walls, everybody could see each other... constants chit chats about the latest gossip next to the vending machine. It really made the work enviroment a relaxed and friendly one.
The work in there flowed with no glitches... as long as it wasnīt on deadline crash course. Normally everyone learned to work in a open enviroment, where you could here the next guys wife dicussing with him on the phone. But when work had to be done fast and furious the necessary enviroment for constant concentration was just not there.
What Iīm trying to say here is that with some projects, mainly the correctly estimated one (eg. the pratically non-existing ones) the enviroment doesnīt need to have so much boundaries as it needs with its counterpart where constant focus is needed.
Employee quality of workplace balances with employee work quality.
Yeah, but I go to work to work. I have friends outside work for socialising. Yes, talking with coworkers can help to avoid the back strain from sitting too long, but think about it...if you owned the business would you be happy to pay people to be socialising? I don't think so. That is one of the reasons why outsourcing has caught on.
esor says :
ross_valusoft>Yeah, but I go to work to work. I have friends outside work for socialising. Yes, talking with coworkers can help to avoid the back strain from sitting too long, but think about it...if you owned the business would you be happy to pay people to be socialising? I don't think so. That is one of the reasons why outsourcing has caught on.
I wll be developing sofrware forwelfare of thewhole world.
ross_valusoft says :
esor>I wll be developing sofrware forwelfare of thewhole world.
Tell me more?
Are you a programmer being given outsourced work to do? If yes, what does your boss say about how he will handle problems with your software after the contract is finished? I don't mean that your code will be broken, but for example, how will he handle requests for changes that were not in the original contract if your boss has too much other work.
bas says : To get back at the office non-productivity dilemma. I work from home, and that is realy great (no kids, wife to work) so, great productivity... Of course I have to visit some customers sometimes, but that is a real treat, getting out of the home. :D
And now the drawback.
I have to manage/communicate with people very far from my home in an office. Who are most of the time in meetings / phones / conversations etc. It is a nightmare. Not being in the same room makes it nearly impossible to get them. :mad: So, there drops productivity again.
Cheers
Bas
ross_valusoft says :
bas>To get back at the office non-productivity dilemma. I work from home, and that is realy great (no kids, wife to work) so, great productivity... Of course I have to visit some customers sometimes, but that is a real treat, getting out of the home. :D
And now the drawback.
I have to manage/communicate with people very far from my home in an office. Who are most of the time in meetings / phones / conversations etc. It is a nightmare. Not being in the same room makes it nearly impossible to get them. :mad: So, there drops productivity again.
Cheers
Bas
Bas,
I have an identical work environment....both children married and gone, wife at work and me slaving away here near the refrigerator with nice cold beer on a hot day
My solution to the contacts is to send an email to the person and say "Ring me when you are free to talk about a, b, c, etc. This way s/he knows what needs to be discussed, gets prepared and so I have a productive call. I have multiple projects on the go so if I have to pause on one for his call, I simply go onto another simple one...or do some "safe cracking" :D.
salcorp says : Here at work we have a few people telecommuting and we came up a simple solution for this. Instant messaging, wherever you are. everybody here has a cellphone or a nextel radio.
Anyone wants to talk to you they IM in ICQ, Messenger or anything like that.
You donīt answer, they SMS your cellphone.
You donīt return, they radio the nearest person from you.
Last resort is calling via hardline or Skype to the main secretary.
ross_valusoft says :
salcorp>Here at work we have a few people telecommuting and we came up a simple solution for this. Instant messaging, wherever you are. everybody here has a cellphone or a nextel radio.
Anyone wants to talk to you they IM in ICQ, Messenger or anything like that.
You donīt answer, they SMS your cellphone.
You donīt return, they radio the nearest person from you.
Last resort is calling via hardline or Skype to the main secretary.
or...the hotline to Heaven if you have died? :)
manxman says : Good thread. Here is my personal experience.
I am currently working for a Government department. In my group of about 12 people there are closed in offices, with 2 people per office. I am a programmer, my office mate is a finance type. The 2 next to us are clerical. The lady in the other direction (different dept.) is someone who specifically deals (on phone) with "clients" who are often upset. Her phone calls often get "tense" and the walls are not very sound proof.
Over the past year my mind has learned to tune out the "tense" phone calls, even when I am working on code that requires super concentration. However, if my office mate has someone visit him, whether work related or social, I cannot seem to do the super concentration stuff. I am, however, always able to do good work of the more mundane type of coding, even if some one is paying a social visit to my office mate.
I have no experience with total open offices.
I also have worked places where I am in my own office with very good sound control. After several hours of concentrated coding I have to get up and leave my office and have at least a short conversation with anyone! Mind you, if the timing works out, that's coffee break anyhow!!!
That 40% figure sounds so terrible, but maybe it is true. Scary to think that productivity is that low.
Richard
ross_valusoft says : Thanks for your experiences Richard.
Does your department have a breakout area for those meetings? I know it is almost impossible to prevent the spontaneous "social meetings", but the predictable meetings should be booked into an area/room that does not interfere with others. Maybe a topic to raise at your next "industrial democracy" meeting, assuming that you have one.
How does your room mate feel about interruptions? Maybe you could both develop a signal system like the one that DeMarco described in the book I mentioned earlier. A little dated, but one programmer said to his nearest open plan work mates that when he hung his bandanna on the corner of his cubicle, it meant he was not to be disturbed. By the end of the week, the area had flags fluttering everywhere that you looked.
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